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Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #787] Sat, 05 February 2011 20:12 Go to next message
like_a_god is currently offline  like_a_god
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The Crafting skill has a very poorly designed mechanic, especially for campaign with little in-game down time. According to RAW, the time it takes to craft a skill is directly tied to its value. This ultimately results in crafting taking a significant amount of time and has some wonky results where crafting one type of poison takes a week where another may take over a year. (Thankfully, the rules for crafting Magic items seems to work just fine.)

My hope is that we can create a simple mechanic that allows the skill to be more useful to our game. I've been discussing this with Tangaroa and Dragonsong a bit (thanks onto both) but I'd like to continue it here in hopes of getting more feedback and ideas. Keep in mind that I'm not looking to turn PC's into crafting powerhouses but I'd like those interested in crafting to be able to actually do it. Hopefully, we can come up with something better. If not, we'll simply revert to RAW.

I think the best solution to the issue is to replace the Crafting mechanic with something that is based on the Difficulty Class and the type of item being produced. Craftsman will still be required to pay 1/3 the items costs in materials. Taking 10 would also still be an option.

Determining the Amount of Time Mechanical Formulation

Time in Days = 5*DC/Check (Suggested by Tangaroa <img src=" title="Smile" /> )

I think this mechanic is a good jumping off point for determining the time it takes to craft something. Using this mechanic a craftsman could craft a flask of acid (DC 15) in a minimum of 5 days, 5 days = 5*15/15. Likewise, a more masterful craftsman, one who gets a 20 on his check, would be able to complete the same acid in 3.75 days, 3.75 days = 5*15/20. I like this because skill ranks and dice rolls (if you don't take 10) to remain relevant.

Now, moving from this we have some choices to make. For instance, the '5' is an arbitrary number. We could allow it to remain constant for all mundane crafting or we could set it differently depending upon the item crafted. I'm not sure at the moment what the best way to approach this is. Since we're striving for simplicity, I'd hate to have 40 different categories of items but it may make sense categorize items and to say, for instance, that alchemical items are 2*DC/Check, while armor remains 5*DC/Check.

Failure Mechanic
Failure is always an option and the mechanic should take it into account. I think the following would work well. I've tried to make it mirror the failure schematic in the original Craft skill.

Step 1: Determine the minimal time it would take to create the item. In the case of Acid it would be 5 days.
Step 2: A failure by 4 results in a loss of 25% of the time it takes to craft the item. As such, the craftsman is assumed to be working on the acid for a total of about 1 day, 6 hours before he messes up. He may not work on crafting another item until this amount of time has been 'spent'.
Step 3: A failure by 5 or more results in 25% of the time lost and 50% of the materials destroyed.

Mechanic in Action
I just wanted to write this out as an example of how I see the mechanic working. Hopefully it'll help flesh things out.

Successful attempt
Beatrice wants her character to craft some acid. The character gathers 1/3 the cost of the materials and sits down to work. Beatrice makes a craft (alchemy) check and gets a total of 17 on her roll. She now knows that she'll need to have her character spend 4 days, 10 hours (= 5*15/17, rounding up) in game for crafting that specific item. She can craft 8 hours in her lab, 1 hour at the campfire in the evenings, etc. etc. After that time has elapsed the item is completed.

Unsuccessful attempt
Beatrice wants her character to craft some acid. The character gathers 1/3 the cost of the materials and sits down to work. Beatrice makes a craft (alchemy) check and rolls a 5. She has failed her check and done so drastically. Half of her materials are destroyed. The character then spends 1 day and 6 hours in game working on the acid before something happens and the acid is destroyed. After realizing this the craftsman can retry crafting the item.

Tidbits

I am well aware that there are certain things that will need to be determined once the main schematic has been nailed down. Here are some quick notes:

Reworking Feats & Class Skills
I am aware that there are some feats and class abilities that will need to be reworked. More on this once the main schematic is achieved.

Masterwork or Special Materials
I can see both of these being added into the mechanic but let's get the basic one down first and then decide how to proceed.

Batch Crafting:
Items that are sold in units, such as arrows, will be crafted in units.
Can craftsman craft two identical items, such as two short swords, at the same time and lessen overall time? This was not allowed in the original schematic and may prove to be too unwieldy. Let's get the basic mechanic down first and go from there.

Gathering Materials:
There has already been a question regarding the gathering of materials and whatnot. Most likely this won't be included in the mechanic per se but will be a the result of roleplaying and will take the place of providing 1/3 of the cost of creating the item.
Re: Crafting Skill [message #789] Sun, 06 February 2011 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
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As a general rule of thumb, I think do determine the leading coefficient, i.e. the '5' in the example, one could use (DC - 4) as a rule of thumb. So a DC 5 item would date 5-4 = 1 day, and DC 25 would take 25-4 = 21 days.

For the more mathematically inclined, this works out to:

Time (Days) = (DC - 4)(DC)/(Skill Check)

However, some sort of caveat must be in place; the above equation works for armor and swords, but falls through for alchemical items (21 days to make a sunrod?). So one could either devise an arbitrary gp limit that lowers the effective time, or just use 'common sense'. Certain simple alchemical items take 5 days, despite a DC of 25.
Re: Crafting Skill [message #790] Sun, 06 February 2011 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
"Tangaroa"
As a general rule of thumb, I think do determine the leading coefficient, i.e. the '5' in the example, one could use (DC - 4) as a rule of thumb. So a DC 5 item would date 5-4 = 1 day, and DC 25 would take 25-4 = 21 days.

For the more mathematically inclined, this works out to:

Time (Days) = (DC - 4)(DC)/(Skill Check)

However, some sort of caveat must be in place; the above equation works for armor and swords, but falls through for alchemical items (21 days to make a sunrod?). So one could either devise an arbitrary gp limit that lowers the effective time, or just use 'common sense'. Certain simple alchemical items take 5 days, despite a DC of 25.


In a game where down time is more prevalent I think the DC-4 would work. Given what I know of Like_a_gods GM style I'd rather him ball park it towards the short end of the spectrum.
Re: Crafting Skill [message #803] Sat, 12 February 2011 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
like_a_god is currently offline  like_a_god
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Alrighty, I've spent the last week mulling things over. Thanks to Dragonsong for giving me feedback and again to Tangaroa for his help in presenting the issue and creating the base formula. The calculations are now done in hours, rather than days so it's easier to keep track of on an ongoing basis. I've decided to base the 'X-factor' on item category in hopes of creating time frames for item creation that seem reasonable. Feel free to look it over and if you have any questions or concerns let me know.I'm sure we'll have to do some tweaking as we actually put things into practice, so consider this a work in progress. At the moment I think that this is a far better system than RAW.

Without further adieu here is the rework!

Reworked Crafting Mechanic
This is a reworking of the crafting mechanic used for the creation of mundane items for campaigns in which downtime is limited. It is a PC centered mechanic in which ‘realism’ is sacrificed for utility. It is hoped that this mechanic allows PC’s to make use of the crafting skill as another viable option to overcome challenges the party might face.

It should be noted that this system will not be used by NPC’s or directly influence the campaign world itself. Furthermore, the DM reserves the right to tweak the mechanic, limit access to raw materials or take other actions if the mechanic proves too unwieldy.

General Comments
[list]
[*]Crafting may only take place when the appropriate tools are on hand and circumstances would reasonable permit it.[/*:m]
[*]Crafting requires 1 hour of downtime even if the individual items created require less.[/*:m][/list:u]
Determining Crafting Time
The crafting mechanic is built upon the following formula: Hours=X*DC/Check. The process is as follows:

Step 1) Decide which item is to be crafted and its DC.
Step 2) Determine which category the item falls under and note its ‘X-factor’. See "X-Factor Crafting Table" below
Step 3) If attempting a faster creation, make adjustments to DC according to “Faster Creation”
Step 4) If making masterwork items apply adjustments detailed in ‘Masterwork Items’
Step 5) Pay 1/3 items value and make a crafting check. This will determine success or failure.
Step 6)If success, the item will be created at the end of the number of hours indicated by the formula.
Step 7) If failure, see “Failed Attempt & Retry”


X - Factor Crafting Table

Category______________________________________________________X-Factor
Simple Alchemical Item: Acid_________________________________________________16
Typical Alchemical Item: Alchemist’s Fire, Smokestick, or Tindertwig________________24
Complex Alchemical Item: Antitoxin, Sunrod, Tanglefoot Bag, Thunderstone__________32
Light Armor or Shield________________________________________________________48
Medium Armor or Shield______________________________________________________64
Heavy Amor or Shield________________________________________________________80
Ammunition – Bolts & Arrows (Set of 20)________________________________________24
Longbow & Shortbow________________________________________________________32
Composite Longbow or Composite Shortbow_____________________________________40
Composite Longbow or Composite Shortbow w/ High STR Rating____________________48
Crossbow__________________________________________________________________56
Simple Melee or Thrown Weapon ______________________________________________24
Martial Melee or Thrown Weapon______________________________________________40
Exotic Melee or Thrown Weapon_______________________________________________56
Very Simple Item (Wooden Spoon)_____________________________________________16
Typical Item (Iron Pot)_______________________________________________________32
High-Quality Item (Bell)______________________________________________________56
Complex or Superior Item (Lock)______________________________________________80

Faster Creation
You can choose to create items more quickly. -16 to ‘X-factor and +10 to the DC of the item being created. Using this method, items take a minimum of 1 day to craft.

Masterwork Items
Crafting of Masterwork items adds +16 to the ‘X-Factor’ and +5 to the DC of the item being created.

Failed Attempt & Retry
Step 1) Determine the minimal time it would take to create the item. For instance, Acid it would be 16 hours.
Step 2) A failure results in a loss of 25% of the time it takes to craft the item. If the craft check fails by 5 or more it results in 50% of the base materials being destroyed. In the case of Acid, the craftsman is assumed to be working on the acid for a total of 4 hours before he messes up. He may not work on crafting another item until this amount of time has been 'spent'.
Step 3) After spending the allotted time and additional material cost, if necessary, the craftsman may retry to craft the item again.
Re: Crafting Skill [message #1063 is a reply to message #803] Sun, 03 July 2011 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
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I would like to petition for a reconsideration of crafting times on ships.

The four hours of work, divide by 2 is clearly meant for camping/outdoors situations, not sitting around for 24 hours on a ship; read the description on p. 549.

It could be said that work in ship's lab is a distracting environment, so one would only get half time. Nevertheless, there are tons of historical examples of carpenters, smiths, sail menders and cooks on a ship. Granted rough or poor weather would be a different matter.

Here's my example scenario, with the cook (level 5 commoner with skill focus, about +10 skill)

"Well, I could only work 2 hours today, being all distracted cause I was on a ship and all. Normally, I'd make 10 gp a week (DC20) sitting around on land, but since I can only work at quarter time, I can only make 2.5 gp a week, or 8 sp/day. Lets see... that's 3 common meals or 8 poor meals. Since there are 22 or 23 of you, I guess about a third of you are eating today. Oh, and only 1 meal today. Aren't you glad you hired me?"

[Updated on: Sun, 03 July 2011 12:31]

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Re: Crafting Skill [message #1064 is a reply to message #1063] Sun, 03 July 2011 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
like_a_god is currently offline  like_a_god
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Tangaroa,

Once again we're running into an issue with the crafting mechanics. /sigh

The information on pages 548-549 deal specifically with the crafting of magic items. According the mechanics, while adventuring a character may spend up to 4 hours crafting but only nets half that toward the progress of item creation. The same mechanic is used for 'distracting or dangerous environments'. The main thing here, I believe, is that the day isn't dedicated to crafting alone. (Also, note that only 1 magical item may be crafted each day, regardless of time.)

On the other hand, mundane craft skills, such as craft (alchemy) or craft (cooking), say nothing of such limitations other than that the check for an item is made once per week or day. From this I'm assuming an entire day, 8 hours, or a week, made up of 8 hour days, is the duration of time for the check. It doesn't even appear that crafting while adventuring is considered an option.

More /sigh

We've tried to revamp the mundane crafting system to make it more useful, i.e. less time, and to also bring it inline a bit with magic items, i.e. crafting while adventuring. This seems to work off the ship, while adventuring. At least it has so far.

From my perspective crafting on board a ship may be a combination of both dedicated and adventuring conditions. As such, we'll allow for two different timing scenarios, both of which are dependent on sea conditions. Regardless of which one is used neither would allow for the crafter to work more than 8 hours per day.

Scenario 1 - Crafter as passenger (Dedicated Time)
The crafter has no duties to the ship during the day. He may craft up to 8 hours, in two 4 hour blocks, and get full 8 hours of credit toward item creation.

Scenario 2 - Crafter as Crew (As adventuring)
The crafter is part of the crew and has duties, such as watches or whatnot, to the ship. The crafter may spend up to 4 hours crafting per day but only half of that goes toward completion of the item.

Please note that Rhedoc may fall under Scenario 1 on one day and Scenario 2 on another.

I am fully aware that the further we step away from the core rules, as wonky as they are to begin with, the more we're having to make ad hoc rulings regarding the craft skills. It is not an ideal situation and I appreciate your willingness to tweak things as necessary.

like_a_god


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Re: Crafting Skill [message #1065 is a reply to message #1064] Sun, 03 July 2011 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
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I apologize again. I hate to sound like a broken record, but the alchemist (or at least, my alchemist) is strongly dependent on crafting. I'm happy with the above compromise. I think has it stands the character has watch duties once every 3 days... so two days on, one day off works. Barring bad weather, attacks and what not. And I will go with the 5% chance to start a fire on ship.
Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1066 is a reply to message #787] Mon, 04 July 2011 01:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
duhwoo is currently offline  duhwoo
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Rhedoc has 3 days free between watches-- and is on watch with Morgan, every 4th evening. Morgan can cut Rhedoc some slack, allowing the gnome to spend watch time in the lab -- as long as the door is open, and Rhedoc remains awake and alert through midnight (when relieved). I believe that with the Captain's largess, Rhedoc can be credited 8 hours of lab time each day at sea -- barring weather or enemy action, of course.

FRITZ
Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1067 is a reply to message #787] Mon, 04 July 2011 07:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
like_a_god is currently offline  like_a_god
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All,

I'm starting to have grave concerns about the reworked craft skill. My intentional all along has been to make the skill more viable at the table and something that would benefit the party. I'm coming to the conclusion that not only has it failed to benefit the party but it's a distraction that has negatively impacted the game. As such, I feel its time we had a discussion regarding its continued usage.

Before we go further, I do want to acknowledge the fact that Tangaroa is intimately wrapped up in several factors of this discussion. This is mainly because his character has taken the most advantage of it and his actions have helped to illuminate the system's shortcomings. This is in no way meant in any way to be a personal attack.

There are several areas of concern and I'll try to lay these out as best as I am able. I apologize in advance for the wall of text.

First off, what was supposed to be a simple reworking of the crafting skill has turned out to be anything but. We've spend a lot of time discussing crafting, what it is and is not meant to do. Furthermore, the reworked system is repeatedly getting confused with the rules for the crafting of magical items. Part of this is due to the fact that the magical crafting rules where the only clear basis for doing crafting 'on the go'. Regardless, I feel like I'm continually having to reiterate the distinction between the two and I'm still concerned it's one that isn't completely understood. Frankly, I'm getting tired of spending so much time on it.

Secondly, one of the main reasons for doing the rework was to benefit the party. I have not seen a substantial benefit materialize for the party at the table and, as such, it has me questioning why I'm spending so much time looking on a reworked mechanic. Sure, part of this has to do with party dynamics, but it is what it is. In this regard, I find the rework an utter failure.

Third, the rework has taken something that has always been peripheral, and probably should have remained there, and allowed it to become a major focus. Yes, I suppose I should have seen this coming but, in all honesty, I didn't think it would be a big deal. However, I was wrong. I failed to consider at least two things.

- One, I was under the impression that any decrease in the time it took to craft, however small, would be a boon. I hadn't considered how it might be used by a power player or that there would still be dissatisfaction with the time requirements.

- Secondly, and perhaps the most problematic all things considered, is that while the rework of the system may fix some issues with the RAW (depending on what you think is 'broken'), the Alchemist class throws a wrench into everything. In essence, the Alchemist class has traits that help it overcome some of the challenges in the RAW and make it a viable crafter. However, these traits pose significant difficulties when trying to make an overarching 'rework' of the crafting system. Looking forward, we'd have to return again and again to the crafting system and 'rework' Alchemist class to bring them inline with other classes. I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

Having said all that, we do have some solutions available to us, though I'm sure not everyone will be happy with the options.

1) Revert to RAW mechanics. Yes, I will allow for skill and feat reallocation for everyone who has a craft skill. That's only fair. The Alchemist will retain a significant advantage due to the traits of the class.

2) Convert to the Pathfinder Society in regards to crafting of both mundane and magical items. This basically means all crafting feats are done away with, mundane crafting is as per RAW. Alchemists get 'Extra Bombs' and Wizards get 'Spell focus' instead of scribe scroll. Yes, I will allow for skill and feat reallocation for those who have craft.

3) With some hesitation, I will consider continuing on with the reworked system. The major boon here is that crafting of all sorts will be more rapid than by RAW. However, crafting needs to remain a peripheral activity and cease being a main focus. Furthermore, feats and skills which further manipulate crafting, such as Master Alchemist, will not be available to characters.

There really isn't an ideal fix for this situation... /sigh

like_a_god


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Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1068 is a reply to message #1067] Mon, 04 July 2011 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
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Sweet zombie jesus!

As long as this POWER GAMER!!!! (TM) gets to throw lots of alchemist flasks at sweet zombie jesuses without bankrupting his character, this PG doesn't care what rules we use.

I fear that if I present more math it will make this more of an "issue". What the hell... I fear no math! (well, maybe Green's functions; integrating over infinities makes me feel funny).

Current crafting system (at +16 craft alchemy), taking ten it currently takes 1.92 days to craft an alchemist flask, including alchemist class bonuses (swift alchemy).

In the old system, taking 10, it currently takes 1.15 days, including alchemist class abilities.

Thus, on a mathematically level I care not.

So there are other issues you brought up, blah blah. Yep, sounds good.

Lets talk plot!

(Please take liberally with grains of salt. National health association recommends not taking with more then 2.4 gm's of salt daily).

[Updated on: Mon, 04 July 2011 09:01]

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Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1069 is a reply to message #1068] Mon, 04 July 2011 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
like_a_god is currently offline  like_a_god
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Okay,

Tangaroa and I have had a long talk regarding the crafting schematics. Since his character was really the main one effected by any change in crafting mechanics, I feel confident in making a decision regarding which mechanic we use.

Starting next session, July 9th, we'll be using the RAW for mundane crafting.

Please note:
- Any items you have crafted will remain at your disposal.
- Those items with in progress will be dealt with on a case by case basis.
- Any characters that have placed ranks in craft skill MAY reallocate them to other skills.*
- Any characters that have craft feats MAY reallocate them.*

*Please let me know if you choose to reallocate.

Crafting on Ship
- Difficulty of crafting depends on weather
- A crafter working on a mundane item may spend the day (8 hours) crafting as long as he has no other duties.
- A crafter working on a magical item may spend an 8 hour day working on the item as long as he has no other duties.
- A crafter working on a magical item may spend 4 hours a day, 2 of which go to item completion, if he has other responsibilities. (As 'Adventuring')

If you have any questions please let me know.

like_a_god





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Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1070 is a reply to message #1069] Mon, 04 July 2011 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
But RAW for crafting is a per week check and the result measured in SP for work completed (master alchemist feat at level 5+ and the level 18 alchemist ability as exceptions). So we are still going to the level of granularity of make a roll after 40 hours of "work" which may be more than a week has passed?

[Updated on: Mon, 04 July 2011 10:31] by Moderator

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Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1071 is a reply to message #1070] Mon, 04 July 2011 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
like_a_god is currently offline  like_a_god
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Dragonsong wrote on Mon, 04 July 2011 10:24
But RAW for crafting is a per week check and the result measured in SP for work completed (master alchemist feat at level 5+ and the level 18 alchemist ability as exceptions). So we are still going to the level of granularity of make a roll after 40 hours of "work" which may be more than a week has passed?


Dragonsong,

You are indeed correct and in cases, say where you've got a week of downtime in the city or on the ship, it seems like a weekly check would be the way to go.

However, please note that there is also the 'Progress by the Day' option presented toward the end of the skill description (Core Rulebook 93). I think that this option would also be viable when you have less than a week to set aside at any given moment. (That is unless I'm reading it wrong.)

like_a_god


"Live in your world. Die in Mine!"
Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1072 is a reply to message #1071] Mon, 04 July 2011 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
It is there, but then the check is divided by number of "days" worked so a +16 mod taking 10 gets 26 result for the week. 2.6 GP of the 10 GP for a flask of acid (approx 4 weeks of work to make one) if he works less than a full 40 he gets less than that 20 hrs =1.3 GP of result, 10= .65 GP, and so on.
Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1073 is a reply to message #1072] Mon, 04 July 2011 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
like_a_god is currently offline  like_a_god
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Dragonsong wrote on Mon, 04 July 2011 14:11
It is there, but then the check is divided by number of "days" worked so a +16 mod taking 10 gets 26 result for the week. 2.6 GP of the 10 GP for a flask of acid (approx 4 weeks of work to make one) if he works less than a full 40 he gets less than that 20 hrs =1.3 GP of result, 10= .65 GP, and so on.



Dragonsong

Not trying to belabor the point Razz But it says 'divided by number of days in the week' I was assuming that means simply divided by 7. I assumed that the result would turn out to be the same whether a crafter takes a 10 on one weekly check or a 10 on a seven daily checks. If it doesn't then that's a huge problem.

like_a_god


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Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1074 is a reply to message #1072] Mon, 04 July 2011 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
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Dragonsong wrote on Mon, 04 July 2011 20:11
It is there, but then the check is divided by number of "days" worked so a +16 mod taking 10 gets 26 result for the week. 2.6 GP of the 10 GP for a flask of acid (approx 4 weeks of work to make one) if he works less than a full 40 he gets less than that 20 hrs =1.3 GP of result, 10= .65 GP, and so on.


Eric, just for clarification: from the d20pfsrd:
Quote:
If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result Ă— the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result Ă— the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result Ă— the DC doesn't equal the price, then it represents the progress you've made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.


A flask of acid is DC 15, 10 gp. At a take 10 of 26, this is 26*15 = 390 sp = 39 gp. If you divide by 7, you 5.57 gp a day - two days. I divide by two again as an alchemist (swift alchemy) - 1 day. If I use the option "add ten rule", I get 26*25 = 650 -> 65 gp -> 9.28 gp/day -> ~1 day normally, but half a day on account of swift alchemy. With a masterwork alchemist kit and my alchemist "+5 to a crafting skill" ability, I can do this even faster.

As long as you can make the checks, and items are cheap, it's not too bad. Mathematically, simple but expensive items are where the standard mechanic breaks down heinously; masterwork thieves tools, for example, or a masterwork spear. Why does it take longer to make a masterwork spear then a masterwork exotic weapon? Mysteries! Masterwork spear, taking 10 with a +18 and the optional rule takes 4.9 weeks (if it was adamantine... forget about it!). A masterwork hand crossbow... 5.1 weeks. Clearly, something is wrong. But I'm sure you're aware of all these shortcomings. Lord knows we've talked about it enough!

The real problem, from the alchemist's point of view, is crafting weapon blanches, silversheen, and (especially) poisons. To be ridiculously extreme, take Tears of Death poison: DC 22. Say I can reliably hit a DC of 32 - this 70.4 gp/week. Since one dose is 4500 gp this is ~64 weeks, for a one use item. Even with the "Master Alchemist" feat, this would still 6.4 weeks (but at least I would get Int number of doses!). Best to wait until level 18, when I can make it in one round due to class features!

So as long as I'm willing to limit myself to lower level/cheaper poisons, I should be fine. I probably will take master alchemist, but I'm still on the wall. It's a question of if I want to craft or buy poisons or not.

Anyways, this pretty much breaks my declaration to stop talking about the issue, but really, I'm dropping it. See I'm dropping it right now. Watch me drop it so hard! Bonk!
Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1075 is a reply to message #1074] Tue, 05 July 2011 06:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
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Hmmm... Actualy masterwork is an entirely seperate item... Which makes that not so bad (3 to 7 weeks). So I guess exotic materials and expensive poisons are the only real problem (and if you say exotic materials don't add to an items price for crafting purposes, it fixes at least that issue)
Re: Crafting Skill - Updated 2.12.2011 [message #1077 is a reply to message #1075] Sun, 10 July 2011 18:03 Go to previous message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
Messages: 278
Registered: January 2011
Location: Boulder
Senior Member
Time to craft, traditional method:

T = 10*P/[Diff*R]
Diff = {DC,DC+10}

T = time to complete item (weeks)
Diff = Item difficulty (either difficulty check or difficulty check + 10)
R = Result
P = Price of item (gp)
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