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Making Morgan's Marauders Mightier... [message #1090] Wed, 20 July 2011 20:08 Go to next message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
Messages: 278
Registered: January 2011
Location: Boulder
Senior Member
Regardless of the next incarnation our fifth PC may take, I would like to suggest this group strengthen our ranks.

1) Primarily, I think it would serve our group well to consider Bulla and Tern as peers, or at least junior partners. If they are willing to take the combat risks we are, perhaps diverting more money so that they might improve their armaments (and, perhaps, lot in life) is in order. Right now we provide them with a mere pittance of a wage for risking life and fin.

2) Secondarily, there are a variety of potions that I could make for the group to form a "potion library" - if we were willing to set aside a little money as a group.

1st (25 gp in raw materials for caster level 1)
* Ant Haul
* Crafter's Fortune
* Cure Light Wounds
* Endure Elements
* Enlarge Person
* Jump
* Keen Senses
* Negate Aroma
* Reduce Person
* Touch of the Sea

2nd (150 in raw materials for caster level 3)
* Aid
* Barkskin
* Bear's Endurance
* Blur
* Bull's Strength{*]Cat's Grace
* Cure Moderate Wounds
* Darkvision
* Delay Poison
* Eagle's Splendor
* Fox's Cunning
* Invisibility
* Levitate
* Owl's Wisdom
* Protection from Arrows
* Resist Energy
* Restoration, Lesser
* Spider Climb
* Undetectable Alignment

3rd (375 in raw materials for caster level 5)

* Cure Serious Wounds
* Displacement
* Draconic Reservoir
* Elemental Aura
* Fly
* Gaseous Form
* Haste
* Heroism
* Nondetection
* Protection from Energy
* Rage
* Remove Blindness/Deafness
* Remove Curse
* Remove Disease
* Tongues
* Water Breathing

(note, I can't actually make the 3rd level ones until next level - and I don't actually know all of these spells yet).

[Updated on: Thu, 21 July 2011 08:28]

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Re: Making Morgan's Marauders Mightier... [message #1092 is a reply to message #1090] Thu, 21 July 2011 06:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
How about you edit the list to what you can do at the moment. For me this would make the decision making process a bit easier.
Re: Making Morgan's Marauders Mightier... [message #1093 is a reply to message #1090] Thu, 21 July 2011 08:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
Messages: 278
Registered: January 2011
Location: Boulder
Senior Member
I think asking for the "short list" is the wrong question, since ultimately I can work towards any of these that we, as a party or individuals, might want:

In the moment, I can brew the following:

1st (25 gp in raw materials for caster level 1)
* Crafter's Fortune
* Cure Light Wounds
* Jump
* Touch of the Sea

2nd (150 in raw materials for caster level 3)
* Darkvision
* Invisibility
* Resist Energy
* Spider Climb
Re: Making Morgan's Marauders Mightier... [message #1094 is a reply to message #1093] Thu, 21 July 2011 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
No, because we don't have them at the moment so better to have the actual resources on hand rather than someone make an assumption only to have to reassess a plan because now you have to find a scroll and buy it (not a bad chance but I did fail to find a wand of CLW last time); or we find a caster that you can pay to use his spell book and then deal with the additional expenses and slowdowns.

To be financially responsible of us the 1st level spells 25*50 potions for 1st level spells = 1250 your price or 2500 market versus 750 market for a wand with 50 charges. If Iri or Aryanne, takes craft wand at 5th level (not that they did) or take craft wand at 7th we can cut those costs down to 375 per wand.

For second level spells 150*50= 7500(15000 market) vs 2250(4500 market).

The huge expense increase is for the fact that non casters can use the potions over the wands but as everybody in our party can access spell lists of one or more sorts and as wands are spell trigger items they appear to be better cash outlays. This OPINION is due to the fact that I disagree with the premise of more heavily using the NPC's. If we HAVE to rely on the NPC's then honestly we need to look at our strategies and have Matt reassess the CR's of the encounters.


The drawbacks:

There is a chance we will not be able to find the wands in the market.

That we have to outlay all the cash at once (A HUGE ADVANTAGE to the potion stockpile)

Bulla Tern, etc cannot make use of the wands (To me, Meh as I, personally, don't want to use the NPC's in combat much)

The wand will only be able to be used by 1-3 of the PC's depending on spell.


A huge advantage for the potions route. You can make a potion with a higher than minimum caster level. IE a potion of CLW caster level 5 that heals 1d8+5 but is more expensive to make (125 GP) so still cheaper than a 2nd level potion.

This advantage exists because we do not have craft wand available to us.


Of course the Infusion discovery allows others to use your infusions rather than them only working for you. Effectively letting you use even formulae with a range of personal (true strike, etc) on others. While limited per day costs us no money and allows us to more broadly use our parties renewable resources. I do however realize that personality wise your character is not inclined to take said discovery.

[Updated on: Thu, 21 July 2011 10:21] by Moderator

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Re: Making Morgan's Marauders Mightier... [message #1095 is a reply to message #1094] Thu, 21 July 2011 12:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
Messages: 278
Registered: January 2011
Location: Boulder
Senior Member
Alright, perhaps I should have split this into two different conversations.

1) Regarding NPC's: if there is a strong feeling against investing in our NPC's, then yes I do think we need to reassess our strategies. I think last game was probably an exceptionally hard battle; a resource depleted, recently 5th level party going into a CR 9 encounter (as I understand the CR system to work) is a very tough battle. Generally, we have fared more effectively in combat as a group.

In an very tough battle, such as the one we faced, is there a signal to retreat? Does everyone have an escape plan/method?
In battle against high-damage opponents, do we stop to do minor healing or pursue a more aggressive strategy?
How do we know when to stop and when to proceed regarding resource levels?
Whom do we depend upon for high damage output in the group? Fritz's sneak attacks? If so, how do we support him?
Is there someone who is a "tactical lead" group?
Can we form a heavily armored and/or high hitpoint front line (not that Talinth did not serve admirably in that role), or fake it? Summons, for instance, can buy a party some time.
Rhedoc is building towards crowd/battlefield control. Is there some other specific role I could fulfill? Would this be overlapping with Damon too much?

These are things that bear at least a bit of discussion.

2) Magical resources: My offer stands as to the potions. I'm not suggesting we try to replace wands or scrolls, but at least provide us with some additional flexibility.

As a general rule, spontaneous casters make poor crafters unless they have an extremely serendipitous spell selection, primarily because they often have to purchase scrolls for many of the things that a party might want. Of course, having multiple casters in the party partially alleviates this issue.

Regarding the infusion discovery: much of what it does is already covered by potion brewing (especially at lower levels), and I would prefer to spend the discoveries working towards other ends. However, if there is a particularly strong feeling towards Rhedoc taking that and "pulling more weight" in the party magically, he will.
Re: Making Morgan's Marauders Mightier... [message #1096 is a reply to message #1095] Thu, 21 July 2011 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Tangaroa wrote on Thu, 21 July 2011 18:16
Alright, perhaps I should have split this into two different conversations.



As a general rule, spontaneous casters make poor crafters unless they have an extremely serendipitous spell selection, primarily because they often have to purchase scrolls for many of the things that a party might want. Of course, having multiple casters in the party partially alleviates this issue.





As a general rule arcane casters of all stripes make poor crafters as they are spontaneous (mitigated a smidge by the new favored class options) OR must either find or trade for all of the spells whereas the druid and cleric are top dogs in that regard. But compared to those 2 classes everybody looses on the item creation contest.

I cannot disagree that a small selection of potions being available is a wonderful idea.

The second level ones are where its at for the most part
Darkvision, Invisibilty and Resist Energy are all great the hard part is deciding which resist ones to stockpile and of course how many to stockpile

3 of each is 1350 gp
add 3 touch of the sea for another 75

That is about all I would want to spend on consumables. As that is almost the cost of a +1 or Mithril breastplate. And more than a +1 cloak of resistance.
Re: Making Morgan's Marauders Mightier... [message #1097 is a reply to message #1095] Thu, 21 July 2011 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
like_a_god is currently offline  like_a_god
Messages: 455
Registered: May 2009
Location: Boulder CO
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Tangaroa wrote on Thu, 21 July 2011 12:16

I think last game was probably an exceptionally hard battle; a resource depleted, recently 5th level party going into a CR 9 encounter (as I understand the CR system to work) is a very tough battle. Generally, we have fared more effectively in combat as a group.


I'd advise you guys against using the Challenge Ratings system as it's presented in the book. The system makes numerous assumptions about a variety of things and due to several factors, including our play style I've had to tweak it significantly. Furthermore, I make no promises that the names of creatures I use at the table directly correlate to those within the Monster Manual.

I appreciate the discussion regarding strategy and I'm reading eagerly to make sure I can counter any strategies you come up with BWAHAHAHA!

I don't plan on entering further into the discussion I just didn't want you working off of a false premise.

like_a_god





"Live in your world. Die in Mine!"
Re: Making Morgan's Marauders Mightier... [message #1098 is a reply to message #1097] Thu, 21 July 2011 15:32 Go to previous message
Tangaroa is currently offline  Tangaroa
Messages: 278
Registered: January 2011
Location: Boulder
Senior Member
Alright, let me revise the discussion to exclude CR:
Everyone was really tired, we went and fought two really big things that hit hard and killed one of our peers. Normally that doesn't happen.

[Updated on: Thu, 21 July 2011 15:35]

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